Update: A fantastic conversation about fairy tales and happily ever after has begun in comments on this post! Please join in! As you can see from the comments below, we don't have to agree to create community.
An interesting comment from a visitor named Natalie prompted me to respond in a post.
Natalie, intrigued by Gypsy Thornton's article on Steampunk, asked the following:
"I’m curious about something though. One of my biggest frustrations with fairy tales, especially as an elementary school teacher, is how sexist they are. I love the magic and the timelessness of them, but I hate telling kids stories where every heroine is ultimately rescued and princes never need help, with marriage required in every happy ending. Even retellings don’t seem able to escape this tendency. As steampunk moves away from the compulsive, generic happily-ever-after-ness, how does the beautiful princess and daring prince dynamic get shaken up? Or does it just get dressed differently? What do you think?"
I can't address the steampunk and fairy tales authoritatively, but I can say that not all fairy tales end in happily ever after and even fewer involve princely rescues. Especially the pre-Disney versions. For example, in the Charles Perrault version of the tale, while Beauty is awakened by the prince, there is an entire second half of the tale involving his truly awful ogre stepmother (see Kaitlin Stahl's poem and Amy Rensberger's article). As for "The Little Mermaid," the nameless heroine doesn't get married, she essentially commits suicide in HCA's original story. Snow White makes her stepmother dance in red-hot iron shoes until she is dead in the original Grimm version.
Maybe you can't tell the "true" versions to kids. At least not in school. You never know which parent will raise a ruckus. Many fairy tales weren't originally intended primarily for children anyway.
I think you get where I am going. Twentieth-century, Disney versions or Disney-influenced versions of fairy tales have both given us the generic ending "modern" fairy tales fans want and have simultaneously told us what we should want: Happily ever after. Parents seem afraid to teach children about the original versions or perhaps don't even know about them.
Readers, this is 'zine is called "Enchanted Conversation," emphasis on the second word. What do you think?
Image is from an Icelandic version of "Snow White" I found on Wiki.
KW
Table of Contents, Issue 1, Volume 1
15 comments:
While I certainly agree that many modern interpretations of fairy tales, particularly Disney retellings, have simplified and sweetened the “happily ever after” ending, I don’t think they depart all that much from the traditional tales in the values they espouse to the reader.
In Anderson’s “The Little Mermaid”, the heroine suicides because she has failed to secure the love of the Prince but cannot bear to kill him. “Happily ever after” is so important in this story that the heroine literally can’t live without it.
In Perrault’s “Snow White” and “Sleeping Beauty”, the beautiful and rather passive young women are given a happy matrimonial ending while their monstrous mother-figures are punished with gruesome deaths. This motif, which also shows up in the Grimm’s version of the Wild Swans story, is far from sweet but definitely seems to suggest that the reader should emulate the young women in action and desire, lest they suffer the older women’s fates.
Even stories such as “Katie Crackernuts”, “Tatterhood” and “Donkeyskin”, which all feature strong and independent heroines, end with the heroine marrying a prince. The heroines manage to rescue themselves and their loved ones from danger with their courage and wits, but nonetheless are shown to need marriage to be complete. It seems to me that “happily ever after” has always been a vital component of literary fairy tales, and newer versions of the tales merely simplify, rather than amplify, that theme.
Like Natalie I love the beauty and fantasy of fairy tales, but find it difficult to accept the values that both the traditional and Disneyfied versions seem to advocate. For adult readers, contemporary authors like Angela Carter, AS Byatt and Tanith Lee challenge and subvert these values and offer new possibilities for the reader. For children? Well, perhaps that is a challenge for us – to rewrite and create fairy tales that have every bit as much magic as the older stories, but offer new and more empowering options for heroines, heroes and readers alike.
I agree with Emily Jane. I don't think modern retellings and Disney are the sole reasons for why fairy tales seem to have 'sexist' values.
Here are just some thoughts from me:
I have just been spending the past two months working (teaching English) at a kindergarten in a foreign country (Poland). This has been an interesting experience for me as both a Psychology and English student... because I soon found myself witnessing in the kindergarten, not only the origins of language, but the origins of all kinds of social rules, stereotypes, and attitudes such as that Natalie was questioning. The picture of the woman in an apron, we teach the three-year-olds, is 'Mummy' (Mommy). The picture of the man sawing wood is 'Daddy'. The pink doll (in practical activities) is 'Mummy'. The blue doll is 'Daddy'. From an adult's point-of-view, kindergartens are possibly the most stereotypical/sexist places in the world. Whether this is good education in the long run ('are children growing up to superficial/inflexible/fixed beliefs?' 'are we bringing up our children with these stereotypical gender roles?') is debatable by all academics, perhaps. But why do we do it? Because it would have been too complicated otherwise. They are only three. The apron is a clear visual cue for a three-year-old to identify what 'Mummy' is, until they grow up and can understand the real, more complicated roles and duties of a mother.
Back to fairy tales. I think part of the timelessness and power of fairy tales IS that it tends to be so simple (prince rescues princess, good overcomes evil, marriage, happily ever after... simple stereotypes of 'prince = hero', 'marriage = happiness', 'apron = mummy')... and in a way, it has to be, so that we can still read them after all these years... and yet it is something that you can go deeper with (as an adult, as a thinker). It's something both simple and complex.
I am actually quite a feminist, but sexism views aside, I still read fairy tales because for me, (biiig Disney-soundng generalization here) it's about people finding happiness (happily ever afters). Maybe when I was little, I daydreamed about getting married to a handsome prince, but now I'm older, I know better than to equate marriage with happiness (I know I could have a career!), just as I know better than to think every mum wears an apron. The gender of the hero/villain/victim is irrelevant to the fact that fairy tales send my head to the clouds. XD Minor, minor, based-on-the-society-the-fairy-tale-was-from details, to me. (That said, I am no expert on child education and therefore cannot comment on whether overly-simplistic gender roles in fairy tales are necessary/good/bad for our society...)
To state the more conventional explanation, we do have to consider that fairy tales have been passed down from a different time period and society. The tales themselves are timeless, but doesn't mean the details aren't! I think sexism didn't exist as a societal view in the time most fairy tales were written. So you can practically say fairy-tales aren't sexist because they come from an era where it wasn't deliberately intended. Well, I like to think that, but maybe I am a bit optimistic?
I mean, who knows, in a few years time, maybe we will be accusing these same fairy tales, these teaching-methods of 'Mummy' and 'Daddy' as 'homophobist' instead because they only ever promoted/taught a male-female union? Or whatever new fashionable pair of glasses our society will start wearing in the future.
All that said, I DO like the idea of fairy tales that fit with modern values. It is indeed an interesting challenge, (particularly for those who DON"T want to read the old-fashioned-valued fairy-tales to their modern-living children), and, if it's as well-written as any of the 'old' fairy tales, it will be equally a pleasure to read.
I'd like to make it clear that I absolutely adore this site, as well as traditional fairy tales and fairy tales with a twist. But what amazes me is that on this very site, when you go to submissions to enter the contest, somewhere deep in all the information, it states that they are not interested in the "you go girl" attitude! Also, that humor is hard to do with fairy tales. My own piece was that I submitted is based on how a modern (teenage) sleeping beauty would respond. It was also designed to be funny (she talks about the prince's bad breath!). Even if those who read my piece don't appreciate it, I think that the piece A Fairy in Stilettos on this site proves how wonderful a modern chic twist can be! I love the you go girl attitude!
I am very new to this blog site. I am also a new student of the old version of fairy tales. I will have to say that as a mother of three girls I am not sure that I would have been comfortable reading to them Grimm's original version of "Snow White" or "Sleeping Beauty" or even Hans Christian Anderson's original of "Little Mermaid". I am hooked on Disney's version I guess. I like to think that there is a "happily ever after" especially in the fairy tales that we read to our children. They have to face reality soon enough when they grow up, why not let there be a little whim and whimsical for the children, giving them something to daydream about.
I like to think that I raised my girls to be strong, confident women, but, I do not see the harm in them thinking of some handsome prince that could sweep them off of their feet, even if it is just a fairy tale.
Stephanie L.
I think the approach of fairy tales ending in happily ever after is to appease the children. True, many people do not know the true stories behind Disney’s creations, but if they had, I am certain they would prefer the Disney version. Children need to have hope and to hear stories where the protagonists end in failure would most likely bewilder them. Imagine telling your child the story of “The Little Mermaid” where she dies in the end. Your child may start crying or at least be very upset that she is dead and did not get her prince. People in general just need a resolution to their story. If a story ends in tragedy, the story feels unfinished. One ponders, well what will happen next, who will save them now? I can understand that just because we want the story to end happily does not mean that it must end in marriage. I think Jennifer makes a good point that in the time that these stories originated, that marriage was a favorable goal for women to reach. Could we alter the stories to have our female protagonists reach a more rewarding goal than marriage to relate to modern times? Sure, but as Jennifer also states, the fairy tales are simplified with complex meaning. So in order to keep the tales short and sometimes sweet, marriage may just be an easy answer that can stand throughout time.
Gabrielle L.
I agree that the original and Pre-Disney fairy tales were not intended for children. They were for adults and told by adults. We are mature and have enough knowledge in life to know that it's hard, painful, and not always glamourous and easy.
If I were a parent, I wouldn't tell my kids the original fairy tales. At least not until they were sixteen or so. They are kids and need to be kids; and not worry or think about the future yet. Many of us adults wish we were kids again at some point. To go back and have no worries, no stress, have fun, play all day, and learn.
And yes, I believe that many adults just plain don't even know about the original fairy tales either. How would they? I didn't until this class!
MelissaW
Fairy tales were intended for children and adults, but mostly the imaginative minds of little children. We should let children watch the Disney versions and newer versions we have today since they are young and need to have the ability to dream and think they are going to live “happily ever after.” Watching the Disney movies of fairy tales growing up, I didn’t catch every detail I do now knowing the real version. Young children will pay attention to the prince charming, the villain, the princess and not worry about the fact that there was an absent father figure in a great majority of the films. So, why would we let our children learn the real versions of these twisted stories at such a young age when their minds cannot fully understand the meaning of them? I know I’m still in awe of the real versions we are learning in class and looking ahead, I might teach my kids the stories that I just recently learned as a nineteen year old.
Jessica L.
I would have to agree with this post in the fact that when people first started writing fairy tales that they weren't exactly meant for young children, but more so for young adults and older people. I believe this because many adults knew there wasn't a happily ever after ending in many of our lives, and that princes never just came into our lives so easily. So as Disney came out with the fairy tale versions for children that's where all the happily ever afters began. Nobody wanted parents to read to their children the real versions, because they wanted them to have dreams and more goals throughout life instead of less goals and no dreams. Seriously though, who would want to read their children some of the real tales? Especially the one’s where they have a really huge famine problem and parents were willing to leave their children out in the woods and hope they wouldn’t find their way back so they could survive on the little food they did have. This is why I think it is good to just read the Disney versions to the children so they can have more of an imagination, and look up to those characters and learn to dream big since many of the Disney tales are inspiring to the younger age groups. Then when they get older tell them about the real versions so they know they do exist. ~Lisa C.
Well first, I have to say that maybe reading fairy tales to children in school is not the best idea, because like it was said, their parents may have a different view. This could definitely confuse children even more. Although, I think it would be good if parents would step out of the box and read their some stories that are not brought into the Disney productions. Even though I begin to wonder if it is even okay to read them any of the stories, I would recommend to parents who do want to, to read them different kinds of stories. We do not have to stick with the ones with the evil stepmothers and the prince charming for example, The Three Little Pigs or The Ugly Duckling. I have not had much experience with many other fairy tales, but I am sure there are others out there that children can enjoy that do not have to do with living happily ever after with their prince charming.
Brittany C.
Maybe I never put a whole lot of thought into what fairy tales were conveying as I read them to my three girls, but until I took a class that focused on fairy tales, I did not see them as something bad to share with children. Children seem to take on the fact that their parents are sharing time with them by taking a few moments to read from a book, and the context is not what they are truly focusing upon. More often than not, children know when the danger of a situation applies to them, and they know that they are not a princess that is going to take an apple from a stranger or go poking around a place that they are all ready told is filled with danger. I don’t believe that sharing fairy tales in their original form are detrimental regardless of the ages of the audiences.
Vicki G.
The great thing about reading the original fairy tales is seeing how much darker they are compared to their more mainstream counterparts. I personally never knew the original tales were so different from the versions I grew up with, or frankly more interesting. For example Snow White ended her step mother’s life cruelly and vindictively, not to mention creatively, with having her wear the iron shoes. That is a little known fact I enjoy sharing with others, who are often shocked and appalled. As far as the sexism in tales go, I do agree that men in fairy tales get off easier than women. But I believe the princesses in fairy tales are much better than some of the beloved heroes, like Aladdin and Jack of “Jack and the Beanstalk”. Those two were hardly good, hard working young men. The princesses may be passive and rescued by male princes in many tales, but at least they’re not immoral like Aladdin and Jack.
Giovanni
Sexism is such a relative term. If one were to look in the Holy Bible – which I personally ascribe to as truth – you will see a mass amount of “sexism,” according to the secular world that puts on this belief that sexism is the social man over woman theory. However, when put into perspective, women in fairy tales generally have the power over the men and other women. The world refuses to see this, though. Men are not needed to save the women in these tales. The men are simply the catalyst that puts the story in perspective. But as I was saying earlier, in the Bible, woman was made to “companionise” men; made to be man’s companion. And even in marriage vows – as long as they are the traditional vows not made for the occasion, but actual vows – “To have and to hold… To HONOR and OBEY…” That is for the women; the men on the other hand are to: “To CHERISH and LOVE” their spouses. So as you can see sexism is such a relative term. I would say that sexism is there because society makes it sexist.
I am in complete agreement with this post. It is so irritating to continually hear about the female lead is in distress and how some random handsome prince had to swoop in and rescue the maiden in distress. Obviously there are times that not only is a handsome prince nowhere to be found, say in a situation where she is stranded on the road because her carriage just broke a wheel. What is stopping her from changing the tire herself? Well, that would be my question anyhow. It is about time we bring fairy tales into the modern era and have them speak to us in a language that we can understand. I do not understand why we continue to go see movies that are dis empowering to women. If fairy tales are suppose to a part of society and describe what is going on in it, I feel it is time someone start writing some new ones.
I am sick and tired of everyone acting like happily ever after is the worst thing that can happen in fairy tales. Yes, real life does not turn out like this but my goodness look around you with the divorce rate over 50% and children born out of wedlock on the rise, MAYBE WE NEED HAPPILY EVER AFTER. The dream of it and the pursuit of it is what we need to help us go on. Television and celebrities also are full of grim divorce and dysfunctional family and its plastered on the internet, tv, and magazines it is inescapable. Ranting? Yes, I am. If the thought of happily ever after inspires you even just a little stop bashing on it. If it makes you tingle somewhere to imagine that someone is made out there for you or that you have the hope that you will spend the rest of your life growing old with your spouse and you envision yourself on a porch sitting in a swing when you’re eighty holding their hand. Good for you! We need more people like you.
S. Fisher
So, I'm very late with this, but I'm the person who made the original comment on Gypsy Thornton's article. I never considered reading the original versions of fairy tales to children because I teach primary grades (5 to 8 year olds) and the original versions are just too gruesome for such young children. What I probably should have added is that we study fairy tales as a unit and compare fractured fairy tales, different versions, etc. I'd really like to include more complex original versions if that can be done without making them nightmare-inducing. But I'd also like to see less sexism. I don't think ogre stepmothers or mermaid suicides (though it's more complex than that; it's also about her soul) make a story more feminist.
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